Think of this page like graffiti wall just south of the California Street Bridge... it's your place to say whatever you want, good or bad, pro or con, whatever you want. Pretty much anything is fair game. And as comments pile up, older ones will get painted over from time to time.
So there you have it. The mic is yours. Tell us what's on your mind...
[NOTE: in the interest of getting the conversation started, we've posted in some older comments from original Missoula Project site. There's also plenty of fodder over in the comments on the Indy article.]
40 comments:
Found you via the article ... it's good, by the way, and seems fair.
You guys are very intriguing, and I wish you all the best in your endeavors.
Blessings,
Tanya
I read the article. It seemed like a fair piece. It left me thinking you guys are a joke.
Did you just read "Hip Guys Guide to Church Planting"? I saw a guy in Chicago the other day sitting outside a Starbucks that reminded me of you. He was sitting outside with a goatee, seven-for-mankind jeans, birkenstock sandals, smoking a pipe and reading a Bible. This dude was just waiting for a little spiritual conversation. I guess he didn't realize most thought he was a joke but surely if he "identified" with this generation we would all come running. He is cool. He is hip. He is with it. He is not your father's church.
Dude (I can't remember which one of the said this), do you really, honestly not trust someone who won't have a beer with you?? If so, your whole inclusive philosophy is crap. But I have a feeling you don't really mean it and are trying to be hip, cool and cute. Why don't you just try being yourself?
You know what? You guys will attract the already-convinced. Mostly those who think their home church is a bit dry and should loosen up. Give up those old hymns and put a little Bono in the worship. Maybe show a clip from a secular movie (EEK!). Cutting edge, baby.
You said you wanted to hear from someone less enthusiastic...that would be me. You said you wanted folks like me to point out the what I see as the scandal...Here goes. You are disingenuous (sp). You'll go have a beer but never catch a buzz and somehow think you are connecting with me. What a friggin joke.
PS Did I mention is was a fair article? One of the most objective pieces I have seen.
Aslan
That's just great! You mean I can have my METH and Jesus too! I'm going to your church!
People should realize these pastors are getting paid to set up this "Missoula Project". It's in their best interest to evangelize over a couple of beers. Don't be fooled. If you're looking for guilt-free Christianity, look elsewhere. Buy this vehicle and the far-right ideology comes standard.
Ask these people where they stand on the Iraq war, women's reproductive rights or the environment. Ask these people how they feel about warrant-less wiretaps, same-sex unions or the theory of evolution. It seems to me they are sowing the seeds of ignorance and Missoula is just the next field.
When I read the Presbyterian Church in America's assessment of Missoula I was frightened before I could be offended. Then I got around to just being pissed.
Throw 'em out on their ear now, or regret it later.
Erik,
Austin TX
I just want to know if you teach the Gospels to the extent that Jesus' birth was Immaculate, that he performed miracles (raising Lazarus from the dead, etc.) and that he was raised, himself, from the dead and was resurrected and continues to live in Heaven.
In short, do you ascribe to the supernatural stuff in the Gospels? You seem to, in believing Jesus healed the sick, etc.
Do you believe Jesus is part of the Triune God, or do you believe that Jesus was a great teacher, who changed the world, but who died, in the end, like we all do, and was not resurrected?
Just checking out your site here on the web and to be honest some of the stuff here scares me. Without getting into a huge dialogue (sp) I will bring out one of the points that I really noticed and leave it at that... for a while. The part about welcoming divirisity and if I am reading your site right this in general refers to welcoming practicing homosexuals. Do these folks need the gospel sure, are they welcome to come to church and find out who God is sure but can they say that they believe in God and are living their lives for him when they are still practicing homosexuals? Absolutely not! Why? Because I said so? NO! Because of what GOD SAID in His Word the Bible. It doesn't take much new testament reading to find out God's attitude towards sexual immorality, as with any sin God hates it, (and yes it is a sin, i will paraphrase but you can google the passage and find it, "hearing about your acts, that a man has exchanged the natural for the unnatural...etc...) The point in the end is that we as the body of Christ are supposed to reach out to the world and love them and share God's love with them, however there are a completely different set of standards that a true believer in Christ is supposed to be held to. (Should we be surprised when a sinner acts like a sinner? NO He/She is only serving their fallen master (weather on not they realize it.)) Once someone is saved God works in them and as sin is revealed in their lives they need to either continue to grow in christ and let him change their behavior or they will continue to live in sin. As I had feared this ended up much longer than I intended. I see that there is a vision and purpose in the starting of this church but any church that thinks they are free to ignore parts of scripture that they don't like are heading down a very slippery slope...
Hey Milliron44,
Thanks for your questions...I'm not sure how to answer because the views of the pastors don't necessarily reflect where everyone who is part of All Souls is at. So I can speak for the pastors that we AFFIRM each of the things you asked (we affirm the supernatural, the resurrection of Christ and the resurrection of those who follow him, and his being a member of the trininty).
With that said, there are lots of folks who are part of All Souls who don't share our convictions about Jesus, Scripture or lots of other things for that matter. And quite frankly, if they never agree with us, they are still welcome and always our friend. However, we're not ashamed to believe what we believe.
Anonymous,
Are you accusing us of something? Did you read something that has made you make certain assumptions about us?
We certainly think God's Word speaks to all sorts of different behaviors and should challenge everyone's sexuality - the straight person as much (if not more) than the gay person's. Scripture definitely challenges straight people's attitudes towards others a whole lot more than it actually challenges the behavior of the "others."
The bottom line is that God doesn't love someone any more or less because they are gay or straight and we're not going to either. We're going to talk a whole lot more about Jesus than homosexuality, because the Bible spends more time there. At the same time, we aren't going to dance around or ignore any part of Scripture. If you interact with the Jesus of Scripture, whether gay or straight, you should expect to be challenged.
At first I was excited and intrigued about this idea for a Missoula Church. As a recovering addict and a lesbian, it has been next to impossible to find a church where I do not have to hang my head, where I can actually make a friend, where I can practice my compassion and belief in Christ, where I don't have to argue and defend my past or my right to exist until I am exhausted, where I can just BE a member of a Jesus-minded community. But, like in your rebuttal, I did find several things to disagree with and rage over. But I am still willing to give you all a try and see what it's all about. I just want to live my life with compassion, gentleness, sobriety, service, laughter, and love. It would sure be nice to do it with a church community that TRULY accepts me just as I am.
Dear Wildheart - Try All Souls - if it isn't a fit, try St. Stephen's Episcopal in the Bitterroot.
Why are so many people so ridiculously against these guys and their efforts to establish a place where people from all walks of life are welcome? You'd think they were planting a brothel or something...
wildheart,
I second what Suzanne Artley said. I'm a lesbian and have found St. Stephen's Episcopal in Stevensville to be very welcoming. The Missoula Quaker Society of Friends is also a very welcome and warm community. I hope you find a spiritual home soon.
Heidi
Well it is time for a new comment reguarding the Musicians request. Wether or not you want to have a beer with your music team after practices the fact that you are recruiting people for a position of leadership in the church and not even requiring a belief in Christ as their lord and saviour is extreamly telling. As with most churches I am assumeing the worship in song is a significant part of your service, that being said should anyone be welcome to join you for a service-absolutly- should anyone be able to get a leadership position in the church without believing in Christ? Absolutely not. As I am sure you understand from the Bible if we aren't God's children saved through Christ we are by default serving (knowingly or unknowingly) our master the devil. If there is not a consistancy of solid leadership in a church by believers it doesn't take a rocket scitentist to see where the church is heading. Please take some time to think about this- the long term effects of hiring someone who is there for self glorification vs. to glorify their God will either hurt or help the work of God in the church.
Hi JesusLite, thanks for taking the time to write. Here's a couple of thoughts in response to your concern...
1. From your comments I know YOU think having someone play an instrument in a worship service constitutes 'leadership' - but you seem to assume that ALL Christians would agree with you on that definition (and if we don't, well we've obviously sold out).
I'm just wondering if there might be any room for charity or openness on your part here? Or maybe at least a willingness to visit before drawing conclusions and casting stones?
2. A real interesting question (for all of us to wrestle with) is 'What makes our worship acceptable?' Does it depend primarily on the quality of US (the person doing the worshiping), or does it somehow depend more on JESUS (the person who lives to intercede for us)?
Here's what I mean - let's say Jane is a single mom who's upfront and honest about the fact that a) she doesn't believe, and b) she needs the money from playing the guitar to take care of her kids. In other words, she's an honest unbeliever.
Now let's take Joe, who believes in Jesus but is totally thinking pornographic thoughts about the hot chick in the second row while he's playing chords for the praise song. In other words, he's a fairly normal believer.
Does Jane somehow 'taint' the worship? Does Joe not do so? Or is there perhaps a vision of Jesus that says the absolute best place for both of them to be is in a church hearing what God has to say about their needs and their hearts? That real worship can actually happen even when you have real sinners in the mix? That Christ is big enough to perfect the worship of a church that embraces these kinds of folks?
How you answer that question will have a lot of impact on how you think about God, and what you think you bring to the table.
3. If the idea of unbelievers bugs you, what about gay pagans leading worship? This might shed some light on how we think.
Of course, I'm not saying we're right and you're wrong in all this. I'm just suggesting that maybe it's not quite as cut and dried as you think. Maybe it's possible that we're actually doing these things BECAUSE we love Jesus, not because we DON'T.
We're a kind of church that thinks its a good thing to wrestle with questions like these.
Christian
ps - when we have beer, it's not just for the musicians
pps - why the JesusLite moniker? I mean, I can understand JesusLIGHT, but 'Lite' just sounds like 'Miller Lite', and most of us know how bad that is...
Response to Christian's response.
Actually yes I think that it does matter. While it may seem OK to twist words and come up with a situation that makes paying an unbeliever to lead worship in your churh OK when you go back to the Bible that idea quickly falls apart. As you like to use modern examples I will do likewise: If you are a Jehovah's witness do you hire a Bhuddist to come and teach your services? If you are wanting to be a pilot do you want lessons from someone who can sit in the seat but can't fly the plain? The idea here is that the Worship in a church- wether through teaching/preaching, singing, communion, prayer/praises etc... needs to be led by someone who has the Holy Spirit in their lives to guide them in this ministry. The more positions that are filled in a church based on who can give the "best" talk or play the best instrumental without reguard to wether that person is actually a member of the family of God will lead the church in a very dangerous direction. To believe that Satan won't take every advantage that he is given to try to weaken the gospel and hurt the effectiveness of the church in light of the Bible is very short sighted. Bottom line those who aren't saved serve the master of this world, Satan, wether they realize it or not. No one can serve two masters, that is why I sumbit to you that to think that you can both have a nonbeliever lead the church worship and also be doing the Lords will for His church in this area is at least a bit being double minded.
While I appreciate your effort to be overly welcoming to the public and anyone at all-as we should be in the church- when solid church doctine is tossed aside in an effort to get people in the church has immediately lost it's effectiveness. To put it better "You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled by men." If we attract the world only for them to find out that there is nothing different in our church from the world that what is the point. Jesus said 19"If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you." My point being that when you start to say that certian areas of scripture don't apply to today then you might as well throw out the whole thing. Should sinners feel welcome to come? Yes but the truth of scripture still must be taught. Homosexuality is a sin-not popular in this day in age to say but thats what God says, there are no moral rights or wrongs- again God says otherwise.
Last point: we need to intrept the world through the lens of the Bible not intrept the Bible through the lens of the world.
P.S. The lite in jesuslite was because light was already taken at the time and I have never needed another ID :)
P.P.S. I really have no problems with drinking as long as we folow the scripture and are not drunk with wine.
P.P.P.S. If leading worship is not a leadership position in the church then many many many churches must have the wrong idea giving around 1/3 to half or more of their service time to worship if it isn't that important in church.
Hey Jesuslite,
I think it's fair to say that we disagree on this one.
One question for you, though, what is your position on having young people in the church who might be musically inclined playing on a music team for Sunday worship?
I agree that we both disagree and am content to leave it there. As to youth being involved in worship I believe that if they really want to be involved in worship it should be for the right reasons- bring glory to God not self. Therefore it shouldn't take too much effort to sit the individual down and find out where they are coming from in their desire to be involved. If the reason is wrong then it can be addressed in a respectful way that can be an educational moment. As a church brings up its youth part of equiping them to serve is teaching what serving really is and why we should serve are we are called.
On a personal note I do enjoy our dialogue, I believe that it is good to have someone inteligently challenge your beliefs and make you think and do some research to be able to give an answer. Blessings.
One of the reasons I asked about youth is that it is very difficult to ascertain where young people are at with God.
Most of us have no problem putting the youth of Christian parents on a music team - we recognize they are in process. But we have little charity towards those who are adults who also might be in process.
I've known many a youth who seemed to be "doing it for the right reasons" who later renounced their faith once they became adults.
My point is simply that the church has to use discernment in every situation and try to give everyone equal access to Jesus.
Just out of curiosity - what is your role in the church? Are you in a position of leadership?
Thanks for your dialog and being willing to disagree with us here!
In answer I bounce back and forth between sound and video tech and often play git-fiddle, accoustic mostly, and sing for worship with our team. I also do much of the behind the scenes tech work at the church.
I'm noticing a lot of confusion on this page and I think it's because the website is not very clear on what you beleive. It all seems really vague and there are some really important questions people have asked. What I'm wondering is are you in any way affiliated with the Unitarian church? There are quite a few churches called "All Souls" that are Unitarian which means they beleive there is no hell and that all roads lead to God and that Jesus' sacrifice wasn't really necessary. I am a big beleiver in reaching out to people but that doesn't mean that we have to compromise the truth of the gospel which means that we are all in need of a Savior, specifically Jesus Christ Who is not only the Son of God but IS God.
I won't go on anymore since there will be no answer but it would be really nice if you could say what you beleive instead of dancing around it. Remember that the gosepl was offensive and Jesus did indeed offend many. It's not just "being sensitive" to not state the truth of what you teach, it's cowardly.
Hi there! Nope, we're not unitarian. We do believe that Jesus is both divine and human, that he's our only hope of finding life, and that it's possible to miss him not simply by being _bad_ (eg. irreligious), but also by being very _good_ (eg. being extremely religious).
If you'd like to know more about where we're coming from in terms of what we believe, I'd recommend checking out Tim Keller's Prodigal God. Or you could always drop in and ask us in person...
Blessings,
Christian
Hi! It's the girl with the Unitarian question again. Thank you for writing back, I appriciate it :) One last question (and I did check out Tim Keller and he sounds cool), are you a part of the Emergant Church movement? Sorry to be a pest, you have my curiousity going a little. Thanks.
We wouldn't define ourselves with the "Emergent Movement" although there is a lot about the "Emerging Church" that resonates with us. At the same time we realize these terms are confusing and mean different things to different people and so we don't really use them.
I'd rather define us with our tag line - we're a fresh encounter with an ancient faith - which means that we identify ourselves unapologetically with the historical church - realizing there are good things and bad not so good things about that. We just don't think we're original enough or clever enough to say it or do it much better than those who have come before us. We have a lot to learn from the saints of old. I'm not sure either of these other movements would embrace the historical church in the same way we want to (on the other hand, maybe some of them do which shows how difficult it is to define what "emergent" and "emerging" mean.
Great question - you should come check out this community some time.
Interesting conversation about the music/musicians. As always, thanks for your honesty.
I understand that terms might be confusing so to lay it out real simple: the "emergent church" movement has compromised major Biblical truths such as accepting homosexuality (we should absolutely accept and love the person...NOT the sin- according to the Bible) and the view that there is no hell (Jesus mentioned hell more times than He did heaven so that one is pretty clear). They hold a very low view of scripture which is a very serious thing since Psalms 138:2 says that God magnifies His Word above His own name. Does any of this resonate with you? I would love to come and talk with you guys but I just want this to be for everyone to see so that there aren't any guessing games. Thanks for your time! I pray God blesses you with more of Himself :) P.S. Jesus spoke Christianeese so I feel it is okay to say things like "bless" and so on since we are supposed to be like Him ;)
Hey there Anon - sorry to be so slow in responding (it's been a busy week).
In answer to your question about Scripture - yes, we actually think it's God's word to us, that he really speaks through it, etc. In that sense, we're very traditional.
In terms of 'emergant' - I think it's actually more of a broader spectrum (called 'emerging'), w/ 'emergant' on one end of that spectrum (one that tends to have a lot in common with old school theological liberalism - if that means anything to you).
I don't know whether you'd consider us emerging or not. I do think we tend to be connect with many of the folks that emerging movement is trying to reach (un-churched, de-churched, anti-church, burned-by-the-church, etc). But we tend to look at our approach as simply trying to be 'biblical' rather than 'emerging' (or some other model).
That help? In all honesty, I think we're hard to describe from a distance. At some point, it may be best just to drop in and check something out...
Christian
I guess what I would want "undecided" people to research and contemplate, are the true, non-judgemental christian beliefs that define being a true follower of Jesus. Yes, Jesus is a "roll model", but he can be a role model to non-believers. "Believing" and following - being saved by grace, goes far beyond what I've read your church addresses. Faith isn't a lifestyle, it is a faith and relationship with our savior.
Common beliefs among the various Christian churches include:
The Bible
The Bible is inspired by God, error-free in the original manuscripts, and the supreme authority in life.
God
There is but one living and true God, who is one in essence, while eternally existing in three distinct persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Though each person of the Godhead possesses the same nature, each functions differently.
The Father
The first person of the Trinity orders all things according to his pleasure. He graciously involves himself in human affairs, answers prayer, and saves all who come to him through Christ.
The Son
Jesus Christ is both the eternal Son of God and virgin-born Son of man. Fully God and fully man, He surrendered nothing of His deity during his earthly life. His sinless life and his death satisfied the Father's justice concerning sin. We believe in his bodily resurrection, physical ascension, and visible return to earth to establish his earthly kingdom.
The Holy Spirit
The third person of the trinity invades the life of Christ followers the moment they surrender their lives to him. The Spirit teaches us to love God, empowers us to follow Jesus and equips us to serve others. The Holy Spirit executes God's will in the world.
The Nature of Humanity
Humans were created in God's image to enjoy His fellowship and fulfill God's will. Because humans fell into sin through disobedience, all are spiritually dead apart from Jesus Christ. This deadening effect spreads to all, as each is born with a sinful nature.
Salvation
Christ's death is the only sacrifice sufficient for sin. All who are regenerated are declared righteous through Christ's sacrifice. Jesus' resurrection proves the Father has accepted the Son's death in our place. All who receive the Lord's grace through faith receive forgiveness and eternal life. They are filled by the Holy Spirit at the moment of their salvation and are therefore God's children forever.
The Church
All regenerated people belong to one invisible church: the body of Christ. Followers of Jesus associate themselves in visible, local churches to minister Christ's grace to the world.
The Future
The next great historical event will be the personal return of Jesus Christ. Though the time of Christ's return is a mystery known only to the Father, it is certain
I hope this helps...someone!! Stick to the TRUTH - there are false teachers - whether intentional or unintentional, sometimes.
Love of Jesus IS cut and dry,I understand that jesus held sinners close to him but that was a pre resurection time. People before jesus didnt have Jesus to turn to and he had not forgiven anyone there sins yet. Now we have Jesus and the new testament to follow. The only way to everlasting life is through Jesus Christ our Lord.Jesus himself took a stand, even got angry and would not bend.If you believe in the trinity then you must also believe that there is a devil and that he also works in supernatural ways to destroy our faith in Christ. My point is that there are things that are wrong and things that are right and we know what those things are acording to the 10 comandments and what Christ says about morality.I love what you guys are doing, bringing people closer to a personal relationship with Jesus. I think your hearts are in the right place but it seems that you are on both sides of the fence on almost every point. Right or wrong, Hot or cold sometimes it is just that cut and dry. God bless all of you and your members, He is love and he is our only salvation.
Michael Martin
Belgrade MT.
406.595.0243
Hey Michael,
Thanks for posting a comment and taking the time to leave your thoughts.
I think it is easy to say "I think your hearts are in the right place but it seems that you are on both sides of the fence on almost every point" from Belgrade, MT.
What I mean is that you haven't taken the time to even get to know us or the "sinners" we hang out with, so I'm not sure how you can make that sort of judgment.
Maybe I just fundamentally disagree with you that morality is black and white. I think the Bible is pretty clear on some things, but even the things it is clear about could be obeyed for the wrong reasons thus leaving the one obeying them as lost as someone who disobeys. See the story of the prodigal sons if you aren't sure what I'm talking about there. Jesus constantly challenges people who put their confidence in the rules.
So just to be clear...are you saying that Jesus hung out with sinners simply because he hadn't resurrected yet? But once he had he no longer cared for them? I don't understand the dichotomy you are making there. Boy that sure screws Paul over, then - since he saw himself as the "chief of sinners" - after the resurrection.
I think I disagree with your dichotomy (or perhaps this is just the limitations of this forum???). For me, Jesus (as he is portrayed in the Gospels) is the perfect embodiment of God and so it makes sense that if Jesus hung out with sinners and even came "to seek and save the lost [i.e. the sinners]" then God's heartbeat must really be for those who are lost.
Anyway, I've gone on long enough. I'd encourage you to read some of the other comments posted here that get at what your beef seems to be and see how we've responded. You might also want to get to know us - come up to Missoula and check out a service or visit our sister church in Bozeman, Gallatin Valley Presbyterian - before you simply write us off or judge who we are or what we are about.
Thanks!
Hey Michael - thanks for taking the time to write down what you're thinking. Feedback is always appreciated, even when it doesn't agree with us. It's especially nice having a name to respond to (I've never actually met someone named 'anonymous' :-)
And that actually leads me to what I want to say (something Ryan is getting at in his response as well)...
I think that one of the downsides of a website is that it promotes anonymity - we're really still just 'anonymous names' to many, because they've never taken the time to actually get to know us.
So as we listen to some of the critiques that are posted (from both sides of the fence, mind you!) often times we read what is written and think "I wonder who they're talking about (or who they think we are)... b/c that sure doesn't sound like us."
The temptation is simply to "post more info" - to say, we believe this, we believe that.
The problem with that approach, however, is that it creates an illusion of knowing someone - give me a set of facts about you and then I can write you off (or on!), thinking I know you, without ever having to go through the hard work of actually building relationship.
To us, that actually seems a little sacrilegious - something that tries (however well intentioned!) to bypass real-flesh-and-blood-messy-and-dirty-yet-image-of-God people, in favor of something that's neat and tidy and manageable - a checklist to easily separate friend from foe.
We're so committed to encouraging relationship - even and especially with people who don't agree with us - that we're willing to be misunderstood or caricatured rather than simply play by those rules.
If people really want to get to know us, we trust that they'll take the time to actually sit down and meet us in person, see what we do for themselves, ask hard questions face to face, listen thoughtfully to the answers. We're more than willing to share all our dirt with people - we just think that it's best done incarnationally, in the flesh, face to face. After all, that's how God dealt with us...
All that to say, don't be so sure you really know who we are or what we're about simply by glancing through the website. We certainly do believe in providing hints and clues and tantalizing tidbits - but that's really our way of inviting people deeper, b/c at the end of the day, we don't want to know people's online personas - we want to know the real them. We'll settle for nothing less.
Final thought (a little tidbit for those who are hungry to know more)...
Ryan mentioned the prodigal sons, and I'll add this: we're operating out of a particular trajectory, a theological way of thinking. We're deeply indebted to a pastor/thinker named Tim Keller. He's written two books that are well worth reading - The Reason For God, and Prodigal God.
You could read those books (especially the second one) or you could listen to a couple of messages that I preached earlier this summer on what it means to be "prodigal" - here and here. If you're looking for fodder / ammunition, these might be good places to start... :-)
Thanks again for writing. I'd love to meet you in person sometime!
Blessings,
Christian
Thank you Christian and Ryan for responding to my comment. I think both of you have valid points and no, I did not mean we should turn our backs on sinners, trust me if that were the case you would throw me off this site. My point was that some times the answer is clear.Christian, you said it's easy to make comments from Belgrade and that mayby this was a limited forum for this conversation. Ryan you agreed with him and talked of personal contact being nessesary to get to know one another and to have fellowship. Like I said some times the answer is right in front of you(cut and dry)unlike most I took the liberty of not only leaving my name but my phone number as well in my last post, you are more than welcome to use it. I am very interested in what you guys are doing and I'm sorry if it sounded like I was passing judgement on you, that was not my intention. Once again thank you for your responce and God bless you both.
Michael Martin
406.595.0243
I just want to thank you for providing a space for me to explore my beliefs and open up a conversation with Jesus that I thought was closed. No matter what my relationship ends up being to All Souls, I will always be grateful!
Thanks again, Nina
I think just the fact they this church allows such open forum/comments on their homepage speaks volumes about their view on Jesus Christ and being Christ like. Maybe there are some Christians who actually act like Christ. In response to some earlier posts, I believe EVERYONE reads the bible and draws from it what they want to hear and see. I think the only way to read the bible is to listen to it with your heart, not try and figure out what it's saying with your mind. We all know how flawed that tool is and most of us know how amazing a tool the heart can be. I look forward to spending more time with these people.
thank you,
Jon
More fodder for the food chain: Why would a church brew a beer?
I have noticed a few writers who are homosexual and want to come to a Church where they don't have to feel guilty or hang their heads low. They are looking for a place where they are going to be accepted like the hymn "Just As I Am".
Being heterosexual, I'm not off the hook for the sexual sins that I offended God with, even as a Christian,and with a firm foundation of what the role of a Triune God has in your life will perhaps give you more of a grasp on why you can't believe in Jesus the way you want to believe in Him.
Had I not repented (Guilt does play a part,but the Biblical definition is "A change of mind",or "A change of heart."
I still have to struggle daily with my heterosexual lusts, but as time goes on I understand that my lack and inability to do so was paid by the God-man Jesus Christ over 2000 years ago outside the Gates of Jerusalem. Really understanding and knowing this doesn't lead one to think "Well I like to sin, and Jesus likes to forgive, what a great team we make." That's just back door legalism.
With Reformed Theology the playing field is leveled. In the Bible God clearly says that He is no respecter of men (Or Humans).
But seeking a Church that accepts one's fallen condition without regard to encouraging one to evolve and grow in a newly transformed life is the same as just staying home.
JC Berkower, an old Reformed Theologian once said "IF our theology is one of grace, then our ethic will be one of gratitude."
I would warmly invite you all to go to www.modernreformation.org and type in Homosexuality into the search box. Then read the May?June 1995 article "Such Were Some of You: A Personal Account of the Power of The Gospel."
Many people say they believe in Christ, but fewer still believe Him.
Some of those folks might be giving you dirty looks, but the more one begins to see the human condition as God sees it,the more that person will realize that all of us that are saved are sinful people and will struggle with that sin until our last breath we take.But understanding that precious GRACE of God, is what gets one through from the time of belief, until you meet Him face to face. And we all will. Whether you believe it or not has consequences only for you.
Find a truly Reformed Church that will help you to understand your relationship with a just,but merciful God. Remember, the playing field is leveled.
OOps, I forgot to add that had I not repented for my heterosexual sins,I would not have the assurance of heaven that I have today. But I cannot claim credit even for this decision, for without God dragging me into the Kingdom, I would choose to sin or rebel against Him every time.
John Calvin said that "... the mind of fallen man is an idol factory."
One other note: Say what you want Christian and Ryan, but you are an utterly emergent Church and you play to a niche demographic of people. Emergent Churches do bring up good and very relative criticisms of the Mega Church, The American Religion etc. But what you lack are any concrete solutions for them. Get off the fence and get real, even though you think you are. Keeping people in their warm and fuzzies is not the same as preaching Christ and Him Crucified.Having unbelievers actively participating in The Lord's Supper will not endear you to the Triune God, but it will get you a crowd of perishing people who think they're fine. The offense of the Cross is missing at your services, and many (even if saved)continue to lap milk and avoid the meat to help them grow in their faith and struggles with it. Shame on you.
Hi Anonymous!
1. First and foremost, I want to thank you for taking the time to actually share your thoughts - we really do appreciate that (although, I have to confess that I hate responding to anonymous posts - I really like to know who I'm talking to, so even a first name would be helpful).
2. Second, several of your accusations make me wonder if you've actually taken the time to visit us in person (it doesn't sound like the All Souls I'm a pastor of).
3. Third, I wonder if you've actually talked to either myself or Ryan about your concerns before posting here (seeing as how I don't remember having this conversation in person with anyone recently, I can only assume you haven't - again, this is where a name might be helpful helpful).
4. Fourth, given the fact that Jesus actually instructed his disciples to talk to a brother they believe to be in sin, before talking about him to others (Mt 18:15), I'd actually encourage you to come visit us!
Seriously - we really do welcome honest inquiry about who we are and what we're up to. The one thing we ask is that you do it in person (the internet is a terrible medium for real conversations about stuff like this).
I think you'll find (whether you agree with us or not), that we're actually surprisingly open. We're really not trying to hide anything. We'd be more than happy to have you visit, check out a worship service, talk to our folks (including the unbelievers), and ask whatever question you'd like.
Afterwards, you're more than welcome to write your opinion of the whole thing. But at least then, you'll be able to base your criticisms on firsthand experience rather than heresay or assumptions.
Please feel free to call me if you'd like to connect and we can figure out the details - my personal cell # is 406-529-5568. Hope we can talk soon!
Cheers,
Christian
Well,if you put up a public forum, and say"...bring it on." I will be more than happy to do so if the deeds merit reply.Sometimes even the lack of deeds need to be replied to.
But I did come to your Church,and I did participate in The Lord's Supper, and I watched and listened as you made your ale into an idol.
I dont accuse you so much as your conscience does.
Where were you in my time of need?Your Ale and your emphasis on it took priority over a Christian's suffering and that emphasis is akin to the Golden Calf, as the Hebrews said they wanted a god they could see. If you quote Scripture with me then please look at Psalm 55:12-14. I will go no farther lest the tempter stir up my anger again, but pain is not relative. Pain hurts,and when I called out it fell on deaf ears.
When I see some of the well meaning errors you have given out in cases of sexual sin, be it homosexual or heterosexual,you seem more interested in giving these people a place where they can feel welcomed. But it still needs to be addressed.
"Does Jane somehow 'taint' the worship? Does Joe not do so? Or is there perhaps a vision of Jesus that says the absolute best place for both of them to be is in a church hearing what God has to say about their needs and their hearts?"
Unless the heart is screaming out that it needs Jesus (You know that supernatural work of God the Holy Spirit) then whatever their preference is their needs and hearts are sinful in the eyes of God. Thruth hurts, but it also saves,only at this Church we won't offend,just come on in and listen to our Christianese,sing some songs and come on up for some bread and wine.
Not once did I hear either of you admonish the people there "Whoever, therefore,eats the breadd or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord. Let a person examine himself, then,and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment on himself." (1Cor 11:27-30 ESV)Personally the KJV says"...eats and drinks damnation on himself." I hope it hits home.
What I did hear was a brief mention of "Well,if you're not sure (Sure about what?)then you may want to wait."
And then everyone in the place goes up.Is this the new hip way of "doin dinner"?
You got to stand for something, or you'll fall for anything.
Hi Anonymous, once again, thanks for your comments. I find myself puzzled by a number of your remarks (and I think a number of our folks - both Christian and non-Christian alike - would strongly disagree with your description of our service).
But as I said in the previous post, I'd much rather talk about this in person. If you'd like to chat, I'd be happy to get together...
Blessings,
Christian
Wow Anonynous. No love in your words. One can be 100% right in orthodoxy and yet be 100% in delivery. A word of humble advice: don't be the internet police checking up on everyone's doctrine and practice. I used to do this and it makes for a critical spirit and drives thee Spirit away. Let God be God. If He sees wrong in His church, He will correct it. May we rather endeavor to lives ever more conforming to the image of Christ and whom He has called blessed: poor in spirit, mournful over sins, meek, hungry for righteousness, merciful, pure in heart, and peacemaking.
Humbly His,
Paul
From your website:
"What if there was a church for people who have given up on church? A place that...
...welcomed you as you are, regardless of your spiritual convictions?
...encouraged you in your spiritual journey, wherever you are in that process?
...allowed you to be completely honest about your struggles, doubts, and flaws?
..cared about things that matter, like peace, justice, and true friendship?
...embraced all types of people, no matter what?"
From what I have experienced, these should either be revisited or revised.
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